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GUEST: Robert Jensen, Professor of Journalism at the University of Texas at Austin, author of several books including “Citizens of the Empire,” “The Heart of Whiteness,” and his latest, “Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity”

The 2008 Adult Entertainment Expo just wrapped up after three days in Las Vegas. The event is the largest of its kind featuring almost every imaginable aspect of the pornography industry. Attending the expo was my next guest Robert Jensen, whose years of research into the pornography industry was recently culminated in a new book published by South End Press. The book, entitled “Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity,” promises to reignite one of the fiercest debates in contemporary feminism.

Robert Jensen teaches journalism at the University of Texas in Austin. His earlier books include “Citizens of the Empire: The Struggle to Claim Our Humanity,” and “The Heart of Whiteness: Confronting Race, Racism And White Privilege,” both of which we’ve featured on Uprising.

For more information, email stoppornculture@gmail.com.

Rough Transcript:

Sonali Kolhatkar: So, Bob you were just in Las Vegas for the annual, I believe it’s called the annual pornography convention, or is there a better euphemism for it?

Robert Jensen: Yes, the official title of the event is the Adult Entertainment Expo because the pornography industry does not like to use the word pornography in its public relations endeavors. It prefers the term “adult” product or “adult” entertainment. But of course, it not only was a pornography convention, it was pornographic to the nth degree, I think.

S.K.: And how often have you been going to these conventions?

R.J.: This is the third that I’ve attended in four years and, quite frankly, the last. It’s a very draining experience to live in a pornographic culture on an everyday basis but it’s extremely, intensely draining to be surrounded by it for three straight days. It really does take a bit of an emotional toll to see the misogyny and the racism of that industry in one space, concentrated with so many people celebrating it. It really is quite a strain.

S.K.: So, let’s talk about your book and these “adult expos”. Did you do research at these expos for your book, Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity? If so, what did you find at these expos?

R.J.: Yes. In fact, the previous two I had been to were central to the research for the book because when we look at the pornography industry, we can look, you know, really at three different places; we can look at the material itself, and I’ve done studies of the content of pornographic films; we can look at how men use it, which requires engaging with men, which I’ve done; but we also can study the industry, which means going to the producers and the directors and the performers and asking what they think they’re doing, where they see the industry going, and the Adult Entertainment Expo is the one place where all these folks come together so it’s a great research opportunity. And the other thing is that because they’re, in a sense, among their own, these are people at this convention surrounded by others in the industry, they tend to be much more open and will speak freely about things that they would otherwise, I think, be rather hesitant to discuss. So, for one example, I’ve been asking pornography producers and directors for several years now, where do they see the industry going – the industry has become ever more overtly cruel and callous toward women with more extreme kinds of sexual acts being performed. So one of the things I’ve asked them very simply is, where do you think the future of the porn industry may go? The answer I get usually is a kind of shrug of the shoulders and they say, well, we don’t know, we’ve done every thing we can imagine so we’re not sure where to go. Those are the kinds of things that one learns at this event.

S.K.: What do you mean by, “the end of masculinity” and, in fact, how do you even define masculinity?

R.J.: Well, in the book I talk about what I would just call the dominant conception of masculinity in the United States at this particular time. Now, obviously, there are lots of different ways that both men and women imagine what it means to be a man. But there is also, I think, continued to be a dominant form of masculinity that is connected to the concepts of control and domination. That is, to be a man, in the traditional notion, is to be in control and to be dominant. And I think that leads to predictable levels of aggression and violence. And, I think that conception of masculinity, what I would describe and do describe in the book as a very toxic conception of masculinity, is extremely damaging not only to women, of course, who are suffering, for instance, from men’s violence as a result of this, but it’s also very damaging to us men as well. But the move I make, sort of philosophically in the book, is not to say, well, let’s reform masculinity, let’s kind of make a kinder and gentler masculinity, but I ask the question: is it time to get rid of the concept altogether? Obviously, I’m not talking about getting rid of all men. But, I’m talking about getting rid of the idea that simply by virtue of being male or being female, we can know much about how people are going to be psychologically, intellectually, morally; that we have to disconnect these assumptions about what it means to be man and woman. Obviously, men and women are different biologically – we have different reproductive organs, we have different hormones and certainly those things make a difference in who we are. But I think that in this culture, we have long overestimated what those differences mean and I think that the end of masculinity is meant to suggest we need to disconnect and start thinking of ourselves in different ways.

S.K.: Let’s talk a little bit about the heart of the book. In your book, you don’t pull any punches. You’ve laid bare the state of today’s mainstream pornography pretty openly, I think. For anyone who is not familiar with the standards in today’s porn world, it really comes as a bit of a shock, particularly for those people who defend pornography and the use of pornography as a sort of libertarian, you know, right to free speech type of thing. What is the current standard, if you will, that mainstream pornography has, and do you feel that most defenders of porn, particularly from the Left, have no idea how hardcore it is?

R.J.: Well, I think a lot of, and in fact most of the men who defend pornography, including men on the Left, know perfectly well what it is because men use pornography. The vast majority of the clientele of the heterosexual pornography and, of course, 100% almost of the gay male pornography clientele are men. So, in some sense, I think, men know perfectly well. Women have far lower rates of usage so they often don’t know. But I think, in some sense, even the men who use pornography don’t know in the sense that when you’re using pornography for sexual pleasure, you’re not engaged in a critical analysis. So, a lot of times I describe pornography and men say, well, I’ve never seen anything like that, I don’t know what you’re talking about. In a sense, they have seen those movies, but they haven’t seen it in a critical way because they’ve been focused on obtaining sexual pleasure so even a lot of men who are porn users, I think, don’t really know what they’re watching in that sense. And, the trends in the industry, which is very clear now ever since the legal controls on pornography started to loosen by the mid to late 1970s, the trends are very clear – pornography is more and more overtly misogynistic and that is both in the language that’s used, in the scenarios that are created and in the actual physical acts. In the last 10 years, especially, the pornography industry has gone into shooting sexual acts that, I think we can say without hesitation, are not common in the everyday sex lives of most heterosexual couples – very extreme acts involving multiple penetration, lots of things that we can’t and shouldn’t talk about on the radio. But that’s the kind of material I think you’re referring to. It’s rather shocking. And it leads people to ask, how did we get here? You know, a lot of people, their conception of pornography is probably rooted in Playboy magazine or what we used to call soft core porn. Well now Playboy magazine and soft core porn are kind of just the standard for mainstream pop culture. And the pornography industry, the hardcore industry, the graphic, sexually explicit industry has really gone beyond where, I think, anybody could have imagined even 20 years ago.

S.K.: I want to remind our listeners, I’m speaking with Robert Jensen, whose latest book is Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity. He just returned from the Annual Adult Entertainment Expo in Las Vegas. Robert, in your interviews that you based parts of this book on, you, I understand, talked to some of the women themselves who are featured in many of the adult videos. Can you tell us a little bit about that? What was your experience? What were your conversations like and what did you learn from some of these women?

R.J.: Well, it’s very interesting because most of the pornography performers at this convention are there in a very kind of public position. They’re signing autographs for fans and engaging with the public, so, in that sense, it’s not the best place to talk to the women in pornography. It’s hard to engage in a way that I think is real. The interesting part of this last trip was that there was a new company being heavily promoted at the porn convention this year from Australia. It’s called Abbywinters.com and they present themselves as a more female-friendly pornography. In fact, the women used in these videos and on the website have not had plastic surgery, they don’t conform to the sort of porn star caricature – heavily made up – no high heels. They look like average women with a range of body types and things. And, my co-author on many of my writing projects on this, Gail (Dines?) and I, actually engaged some of these women. They were very open to talking and we found that many of them had never really thought through the feminist critique that Gail and I worked from and we had some interesting discussions with them. What was interesting though was the second day when I went back. I started talking to some of those women again and someone from that website, from the management level of that company, came by and asked me to stop talking to the women. And I said, well, why? And they said, well, you’re upsetting them. You and Gail Dines upset these women. And I said, you mean we’ve upset them by talking about a critique of the work they do? And she said, well these women are very smart, intelligent women and you should respect their decision. And I said, well I do respect them, that’s why we’re talking to them as adults, you know, and having a conversation, because we do respect their intelligence. And, this woman from the management of this company said, sorry, just don’t come around anymore. So, it was a curious example of how the industry talks about empowering women, talks about a feminist conception of sexuality through pornography. Yet, when we engaged these women as real people, we were chased away. I think that says a lot about what the industry really is concerned about and of course what the industry is concerned about is turning a profit. It’s a moneymaking and a very profitable moneymaking business and we were disrupting that and, therefore, we were chased away.

S.K.: Bob, in your book, Getting Off, you write from a very personal place, not necessarily from a place that simply analyzes clinically the industry and, you know, poses a critique of it. Why do you come at it from such a personal place?

R.J.: Well, I was originally trained as a journalist and then as an academic and, of course journalists and academic researchers are always supposed to be neutral and objective and there are ways, of course, in which we do try to remain open-minded, objective and honest. Those are all important values. But we also are people. We have minds and bodies and hearts and we engage the world through that as well and I’ve always found that when I’m studying almost any aspect of the world, but especially those that are so personal to us, and it’s hard to imagine anything more personal than sexuality, it really is important to bring all of me into that study, in part because some of what I know about the world is through my own experience. I was born in 1958, raised in the post-Playboy world. A lot of my own socialization as a man was through pornography so I think there are things I can learn from my own experience as long as they are put into the larger pattern of other peoples’ experience, of course. But I also think it’s intellectually and emotionally honest to explain where one comes from. Now, not everybody’s comfortable doing that, there’s lots of reasons people might be hesitant, especially women, given the way women can be targeted personally. But as a man, I think, trying to work within a feminist context, it’s especially important to model a kind of open engagement. In a sense, you know, I’ve made mistakes in my life. I’ve done things when I look back that were very anti-feminist. I had periods in my life where I was one of the guys and I think I should be accountable for that, I should explore that and I think that’s part of the process by which we learn and which we grow. So, I’ve always written about this from a rather personal point of view, not because I think my experience defines the world but because it is something I can learn from.

S.K.: Bob, how do you respond to critiques of your work and your approach to it particularly from people like Cynthia Peters who recently basically critiqued your book saying that it’s not constructive, it shames men and for that reason, you know, we shouldn’t be using these approaches? What do you say to that?

R.J.: Well, I’ve known Cynthia for a long time through Znet and other Left organizations and I really respect the great work she’s done on a lot of fronts over the years. On this, we do have a disagreement. Cynthia did critique the way I wrote about it and I disagreed. I don’t think that engaging men and being very honest, sometimes brutally honest about the way men are socialized and the way we behave, is about shaming. I don’t feel a sense of shame about some of the things I’ve done. I think that part of coming to Progressive politics is about understanding our own accountability and that requires coming to terms with some things that we’ve all done that we’re probably not terribly proud of. I also write about race, for instance. I’m white and I had to, in that endeavor, come to terms with some of my past racist behavior and some of the mistakes I still make in trying to deal with the question of white supremacy. So, to me, it’s not about shaming. It’s about a healthier conception of guilt in that we shouldn’t feel guilty in some abstract way that politically paralyzes us and makes us just feel bad. We should recognize that part of a moral program, an ethical program, is to come to terms with one’s own failings and flaws and be responsible for them. And, part of that is a sense of guilt and I think it’s wrong to try to ignore that. I think if we stay stuck in a sense of guilt we never get anywhere but part of, I think, the political project is to use that feeling to move toward better practices and a better understanding of one’s self in the society. So, I don’t think there’s anything in my book that shames men. I think it asks men to be accountable for our behavior and I think that’s appropriate.

S.K.: What do you think is the negative effect that pornography consumption has on men themselves? I recall reading the book Pornified by Pamela Paul where she does a lot of in-depth research and goes into what she sees are the negative effects, psychological effects on men themselves. What is your take on that?

R.J.: Well, I think there are varying levels. One is that when men are engaged in the habitual use of pornography, it’s hardly surprising, especially if that use begins at a young age, that some of the actual sexual practices in pornography will become part of men’s own sexual desires. So, Gail and I have heard from many, many women, for instance, who say that their boyfriends and their partners want them to perform sexual acts that come straight out of pornography. Again, it’s kind of inappropriate to talk about it on the radio, but some fairly harsh and misogynistic practices in pornography that then men ask for in their personal lives – well, that’s a direct effect on men. It’s a kind of sexual training that comes from pornography. The other thing that is at a more general level is the constant exposure to pornography that is so misogynistic, and often also so racist, starts to provide a framework within which men see the world more generally and I think that can be very destructive. Finally, I think that maybe the most profound level is that in a culture that literally commodifies almost everything these days, I mean, when we think of a mass consumption, consumer society, it’s a society in which everything is up for sale. And now, with the prevalence of pornography, the most, sort of, core aspect of ourselves around sexuality, is also in the market. It trains men not only to objectify women, but I think it also trains men to objectify ourselves, and I don’t think that’s healthy. So, there are different levels. Some of it involves the open and ugly misogyny of pornography and some of it is simply having a sexuality constructed within this capitalist, commodified world in which everything is an object to be bought and sold and now, even our own bodies, our own sexual pleasure, our own sense of self as sexual beings can be bought and sold. I can’t imagine how that’s healthy for trying to create a more just, more egalitarian and more satisfying culture for people to live in.

S.K.: Finally, Bob, what has the reaction to your book been? Every time there is a critique of pornography these days – not just these days – really for a long time now, there are a lot of attacks from libertarian leftists who will accuse you of being Puritanical and, you know, against the First Amendment and all of that. What has the reaction to your book been?

R.J.: Well, there’s still, I think, a lot of that in the culture. One is accused of, you know, being allied with right-wing conservative forces that want to repress women and women’s sexuality. Of course, that’s not the case…

S.K.: …or of being anti-sex itself…

R.J.: Yes, I always find that the funniest one, that one is anti-sex. You know, I’ve worked with many, many feminist women and a few feminist men over the years in this movement and I’ve yet to meet one who argued against sex. What we’re arguing about, of course, is a more authentically liberating conception of sexuality. And, of course, the legal issues around the First Amendment remain complex – I don’t want to pretend that there aren’t some serious discussions that have to be had around that. But, I think, the thing I’ve noticed about this book and my recent speaking and writing that’s different, is that compared to when I started doing this work almost 20 years ago now, the culture has become so overwhelmingly pornographic that people feel a need to engage this question. Ordinary people who might have brushed it off 20 years ago now look around and see the relentless “pornographizing” of the culture, if you’ll let me use that word, and they sense that it’s important to go beyond those clichés and start asking – how did we get to a point where this kind of presentation of sexuality so blankets the culture? What does it mean when 12-year old boys are sitting in front of computers downloading easily accessible pornography that presents women as degraded sexual objects? What does it mean when adults are watching pornography that uses some of the most ugly racist stereotypes available in the culture? Well these are things that, I think, many, many people can’t ignore anymore. So, I think a more engaged and honest discussion is possible now, and I’ve certainly found that in the lectures I’ve been doing, the classroom visits I make, students, adults, everybody is, I think, ready to talk about this in a new way and I hope the work that not only went into this book but also into a new anti-pornography slide show that I’ve helped develop with two feminist colleagues and is available to people who might want to use it for this kind of discussion – I think there’s a new space opening up and, in that sense, I’m very optimistic about the future even though the culture grows ever more pornographic day by day.

S.K.: And, where can people find the slide show online?

R.J.: If you want to send a message to the following email address, it’s: stoppornculture@gmail.com The folks there will send a web address where you can download this Powerpoint slide presentation as well as get a script which walks you through that presentation. That’s a first project of a new group that’s emerging called Stop Porn Culture and we’re in the formative stages of getting that together organizationally. The website isn’t active yet but people can keep an eye out for that in the future.

Special Thanks to Julie Svendsen for transcribing this interview