• Listen to this segment

GUEST: Alma David, San Francisco organizer with Students for a Free Tibet

The torch lighting ceremony for this year’s Olympics Games were disrupted yesterday in Greece by free-Tibet protesters. The recent mass uprising in Tibet and China’s responding crackdown has been the biggest story surrounding this year’s games, which are being hosted by China. The demonstrations have spread to a number of Tibetan cities, and have been characterized as largely peaceful while the Chinese government has described them as violent and out-of-control. Police and military forces have severely cracked down on the Tibetan resistance, with the official state death toll being 22. The Tibetan government-in-exile claims that in fact 140 people have been killed. The Chinese government has accused Tibetan spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, of orchestrating the protests. Last Friday, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi visited the Dalai Lama at his headquarters in Dharamsala, India, and has come under criticism by China. Meanwhile, the Bush administration has remained cautiously critical with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice urging a more “sustainable” policy toward Tibet and a dialog with the Dalai Lama.

For more information visit www.studentsforafreetibet.org and www.sfteamtibet.org.

Rough Transcript

Sonali Kolhatkar: I understand that one of your colleagues from Students for a Free Tibet was involved in yesterday’s disruption of the torch lighting ceremony in Greece?

Alma David: Yes, that’s correct. Tenzin Dorjee, who is actually the Deputy Director of Students for a Free Tibet, confronted Jacques Rogge and was then also involved in the protest and he was then detained and kept for several hours. And he was actually also detained just when he arrived in Greece. He was pulled aside as soon as he got off the plane and his stuff was searched, so it was clear that they were actually waiting for him when he got there.

Sonali Kolhatkar: Can you explain this disparity between the official Chinese death toll of 22 versus what the Tibetan Government in Exile is claiming is 140, in fact, have been killed?

Alma David: Yeah, and in fact, we actually think that the number is actually higher. That’s the number that the Tibetan Government in Exile has been able to confirm, and it is very hard to confirm news in Tibet right now, because a lot of people are either unable to have phone access or they are afraid to talk on the phone, and the internet is being really heavily monitored. So we actually think that the death toll is higher than that, but we are not surprised that the Chinese government is trying to make it look like no one was killed, and if they were, they were either violent mobsters or ethnic Han Chinese citizens who were harmed. I mean that is typical for the kind of propaganda that the Chinese government would like the world to believe.

Sonali Kolhatkar: Now Alma, the Olympics Games seemed to be a convenient focus to bring up the issue of Tibet, which has of course been an issue for so many years. Were these demonstrations planned beforehand, was there any kind of coordination, not only inside Tibet, but between Tibet and the Tibetan exiles in India as well as international supporters?

Alma David: I mean, I have absolutely no personal knowledge of any plans between Tibetans on the inside and Tibetans in exile. It’s almost impossible for plans like that to be made. I think that the demonstrations that started in Tibet were started by Tibetans in Tibet who took that step and who had the courage to do that. I don’t think it was started by Tibetans in exile, no.

Sonali Kolhatkar: How have international supporters of Tibet and Tibetans responded? Worldwide, I understand, there have been demonstrations in addition to what happened yesterday in Greece.

Alma David: Yeah, I mean there have been demonstrations worldwide and everywhere where the torch is going on its relay around the world, there is going to be protests in many different cities, including here in San Francisco. And then, in addition to that, as these protests started unfolding in Tibet and it really became clear that there really is an unprecedented uprising happening in Tibet right now. I mean, we haven’t seen anything like this since, I would say 1959. There were big protests in the 80s, but they were not as widespread and it doesn’t seem that they were as coordinated as they are this time in Tibet. So, all around the world, there have also been solidarity demonstrations in solidarity with the protests in Tibet, somewhat unrelated to the Olympics, but just in solidarity with what is happening right now in Tibet. And I mean, we all, we have sort of mixed feelings about it, because on the one hand everybody is so heartened to see that Tibetans are rising up on the inside, because it just shows that their spirit and their nationalism and their belief that Tibet will be independent one day again has not been crushed despite 50 years of oppression, but on the other hand, obviously, the brutality of the crackdown is scary and shocking and disturbing.

Sonali Kolhatkar: Alma, how does what is happening inside Tibet, how is that consistent, if at all, with the Dalai Lama’s message of non-violence?

Alma David: I mean, that has been the Dalai Lama’s message all along, and I think if you look at what is happening inside Tibet right now, I think what is happening is pretty much consistent with his message. I mean, there were a few reports of people throwing stones and of burning buildings and maybe even some violence against Han Chinese people, and I think that sort of thing, it wasn’t very widespread. It was isolated incidents. And it’s bound to happen after these 50 years of built-up anger and resentment.

Sonali Kolhatkar: So do you think that there is basically, particularly among young Tibetans, a sense of impatience and urgency, having lived under Chinese rule for so long that they are tired of waiting or tired of not physically protesting their condition?

Alma David: Yeah, I think that’s true. I know that it is often painted as this sort of generation gap; that the younger generation is more impatient than the older generation. I don’t think that is necessarily true. I think that maybe the younger generation is more savvy and maybe more informed about the kinds of tactics that other struggles around the world, more contemporary struggles have used. I don’t think that the older generation of Tibetans is any less frustrated or impatient than the younger generation. I think it maybe appears that way because the younger generation is expressing itself maybe in different ways than the older generation is.

Sonali Kolhatkar: Alma, what has the reaction been here in the U.S.? I mean, there has been a long-standing debate, for many years, between various sectors of the left on Tibet. On the one hand there is a faction that is very pro-China, that claims that the United States CIA has been behind funding the Dalai Lama, and that really this is China’s right and that Tibet was a terrible place before China came and made it all better. And then of course, there is the other side which is very much supporting the Free Tibet movement, and also very much supportive of the Dalai Lama. Has this debate had any kind of resurrection in the wake of these demonstrations?

Alma David: I think it has, especially because I think that that’s obviously the official Chinese line, is that Tibetans lived under oppression before the Chinese “liberated” them, and I think Chinese people in China are genuinely shocked that Tibetans are rising up, because that’s what they have been taught all their lives is that the Chinese government came in and helped Tibetans and liberated them and poured all this money into Tibet. And they are now concerned that Tibetans are ungrateful. I think here in the West, I think the debate has probably been revived. I think the fact that Tibetans, after 50 years of oppression, are still standing up and waving their national flag and calling for the return of the Dalai Lama, I think that blows the myth of Tibetans having always been a part of China and being happy under Chinese rule. I think that blows that myth wide open, and I hope that those people who believe that will actually look at the facts at hand and will reconsider their position. I don’t think it’s tenable anymore.

Sonali Kolhatkar: I want to quote from a recent article in the Workers World newspaper by Gary Wilson. “The U.S. news media are filled with stories about events unfolding in Tibet. Each news report, however, seems to include a note that much of what they are reporting cannot be confirmed. The sources of the reports are shadowy and unknown. If past practice is any indicator, it is likely that the U.S. State Department and the CIA are their primary sources.” How do you respond to that?

Alma David: I mean I just don’t think it’s accurate. There were Western journalists. It’s true that it is very hard to get out information. But most of the information that is coming out is from Tibetan exiles, and from people on the inside who are able to call in to Radio Free Asia’s programs, and who are able to talk to Tibetans in exile at great risk to themselves on the phone or over the internet, and there are people who smuggled out pictures. I think if anything, the information is coming from the Chinese state media, and to us that’s a concern, because that information is clearly biased. I don’t think that reporters in the West are getting their information from the State department and from the CIA. This is just another slander again.

Sonali Kolhatkar: This article then goes on to extensively quote the China state website china.org.cn and their version of events. So, let’s talk about the Bush administration and the U. S. government in general. Their position on this situation sort of puts the U.S. government in a tricky place, because on the one hand, the Bush administration does not probably want to anger China, an important trading partner, and then on the other hand it looks bad for them to not speak out on, what seems obvious to most of the international world, a situation of oppression. So Condoleezza Rice has come out saying there has to be a sustainable policy towards Tibet. What do you make of that?

Alma David: I think that’s quite typical of the U.S. government’s approach toward Tibet in general. You are right. They don’t want to offend China. They are dependent on China for trade, and they don’t want to be the one country that stands up and says anything more loudly than the other countries and then get slammed by China.

Sonali Kolhatkar: Except maybe the State Department and the CIA, according to the Workers World, is interested in angering the Chinese government. Anyway. So, what does it mean for Condoleezza Rice to call for sustainable policy? I mean, does it basically mean, continue your imperialism but just do it nicely?

Alma David: I guess yes, I think that’s probably, you put it more bluntly than I would have, but I think that that’s probably about what she is saying. I mean I think that probably implicit in that is some idea of dialog between the Dalai Lama and the Chinese government, which has been going on, I think we have had six rounds of it and it is not going really anywhere, you know. But I think it is easier for international governments, including the U.S. government, to keep pushing this idea of dialog, because it seems like a really nice idea and like the way that things should get resolved, but in reality, the Chinese government has dug its heels in from the very beginning and is not willing to [inaudible] any kind of meaningful dialog, so this is just for everyone to feel good,

Sonali Kolhatkar: I want to quote from what Secretary Rice said. She said “We believe that the Dalai Lama can play a very favorable role given his belief in non-violence, given his stated position that he does not seek political independence for Tibet, and given his unassailable authoritative moral stature, not just with the people of Tibet but with people from around the world.” Can you comment on her characterization of the Dalai Lama and saying that he does not seek political independence for Tibet?

Alma David: I mean that’s correct. That is his official stance that he does not seek independence for Tibet.

Sonali Kolhatkar: And how does that contradict those people inside Tibet?

Alma David: I mean, I think that the calls from inside Tibet are for freedom, and they are for independence. And a lot of Tibetans in exile, that’s what they advocate, too. And, I mean this is a topic that is debated over and over and over again, never really to any good resolution, but I don’t think that, even though it might appear as a contradiction, I don’t think contradiction is really the correct word to use. I think that they are two approaches that can exist side by side as they have, and sometimes it’s a somewhat uneasy coexistence, but that’s just the way it has to be, because the Dalai Lama is, at the end of the day, the political representation of the Tibetan people and he has to be more diplomatic and a little bit more what he calls realistic than your everyday person on the street has the freedom to be. And so that’s been his approach and he really hopes and believes that, by asking, I mean he is not just asking for autonomy. He is asking for what he calls genuine autonomy, which is different from just Tibetans being able to, you know, do whatever they want on the street and entails real freedom to decide their own political future and their religious future, but still being tied into China in some ways. I think that these two approaches can coexist.

Sonali Kolhatkar: Finally, Alma, you are a San Francisco based organizer with Students for a Free Tibet. What is being planned in San Francisco, which is supposed to be the only North American visit of the Olympic torch, or at least the only visit to the United States? Do you know for sure that it is going to be coming through San Francisco or where exactly? And what is being planned, if you can reveal that?

Alma David: Well, so it is coming to San Francisco on April 9th, and we do not know where in San Francisco it is going to be, because the City of San Francisco has made a big deal of not releasing the route where the torch is going to go in order to prevent protesters from disrupting this event.

Sonali Kolhatkar: I understand the ACLU is trying to get that information released, though?

Alma David: The ACLU is trying to get it released, so far really not to any avail. And the City Police Department has announced that they are going to set up a so-called free speech area in San Francisco, which I guess may be in earshot of the route. You know, the torch relay is broadcast live into China, so we know that the event coordinator here for the relay and also the Chief of Police went over to Beijing, I guess probably to meet with the Beijing Olympic Committee. So I guess the idea is to keep us as far away as possible, so that the undisturbed live broadcast [inaudible] and can go on for the entire route. And then I think we are going to be placed somewhere relatively near the beginning or the end of the route.

Sonali Kolhatkar: Alma, where can listeners find out more about your organization?

Alma David: You can find out more about Students for a Free Tibet at www.studentsforafreetibet.org, and then you can find out more about the mass mobilization [inaudible]

Special Thanks to Claudia Greyeyes for transcribing this interview